Well, you kinda need military power, even if you don’t use it, you can’t expect countries to not attack you and just be diplomatic.
Also, don’t accuse people of being [insert here ideology], it’s just childish and not better than attacking them
First of all, no. The whole idea of globalization is that if you have economic entanglement the wars will not be profitable.
Also there are other ways of keeping military strength without having very big military see Switzerland and all guerrilla groups successfully repelling much bigger opponents like the US.
Also, don’t accuse people of being [insert here ideology], it’s just childish and not better than attacking them
I mostly agree, but the meme created does represent this ideology and you can attack problematic ideologies.
Also there are other ways of keeping military strength without having very big military
You’re right! Europe can just defend itself with thougts and prayers. Why didn’t all the bureaucrats from Brussels think about this? Omg, you’re a genius!
military strength without having very big military see Switzerland
Switzerland has mandatory military service. If you include reserves, it has a bigger military than Germany, Poland, or the UK. Not per capita, just straight up more people. If you only include active personnel it’s still comparable per capita to most European countries
It’s not a “strawman.” I understand that most people on here don’t want the weapons going to Israel, which is why I made the point. But the reality is that, once a weapon is built, it’s in the hands of politicians to give to whoever they like. If those politicians are pro-Israel, then even if you want the weapons for the purpose of defense, there’s a significant likelihood they’ll be used to perform genocide.
It absolutely is a strawman, no one mentioned Israel in the discussion before you, it is also not a reason to stop increasing defense spending right now that we need to defend against Russia.
Only out of necessity, Russia has shown that they are done playing the diplomatic game (though they have been playing it quite badly), the US has fully shat it’s pants and is rolling around in it and China has the carving knife ready for when Russia colapses, if Europe is to survive we need to federalize.
At an absolute minimum, we need to build a unified military under one leadership throughout the EU, military personal from the south must be expected to defend Europe in the north, and vice versa.
I don’t see this as being right-wing, I see it as it being a reality we need to face.
I’ll even share a detail about my general political views, out of all ideologies, I strongly believe that Social Democracy is the best, as it combined a strong government with a regulated free market.
I’ll even share a detail about my general political views, out of all ideologies, I strongly believe that Social Democracy is the best
Have you lived in Europe for the past 20 years? European “Social” “Democracy” has led only to the destruction of welfare state, worker rights, increasing of retirement age, and collapse of salaries, and whoever tries to deviate from that by being further left (Syriza, Podemos, LFI) gets couped out of power, whereas far right governments rule without issues in half of the continent
I never said that I believe social democracy is a strong political system, I said that I believe it is the best ideology, meaning that I believe we should keep working to persue it, societies will move to far right, and too far left, regardless, it is a goal we should keep working towards.
I see it as kinda like a compass, regardless of how you turn it, the arrow always point to the magnetic north.
Regardless of what happens to society, we should always have an idea of our goal.
Politicians in every European country’s socialdemocrat party have failed social democracy, seems to me like there’s something in common, maybe the system fucking sucks? And when a new leftist party rises to fight against that, it gets destroyed institutionally, either through removal of government agency by EU (Syriza in Greece), by refusal to place them in government despite majority (LFI in France), or outright fabrications of false funding from Venezuela by the police apparatus (Podemos in Spain)
Supporting leftist antimilitarism isn’t supporting Russia. This is literally what the SPD said in 1914 to support the war budgets for WW1, and this ended in Nazism
How much is your socialism gonna help anybody when a fascist state overthrows you because you don’t have a military?
Funding a defense force isn’t inherently right-wing militarism; it’s a practical necessity in the world we live in. Its primary function is as a deterrent to potential invaders, it only goes into kinetic operations when its function as a deterrent fails. All the more reason to maintain a strong military.
Peace is more likely when your adversaries know they won’t stand a chance against you.
The only leftist ideology that advocates against an active military is anarchism. Anarchists prefer spontaneous militias that activate as soon as another state acts on them. Obviously there are downsides to this practice as 1) gathering up a militia and organizing them can take time away from defending against outside oppressors, which can jeopardize defense in general, and 2) gathering up a militia of normal folk in a society means they won’t be actively trained in conducting warfare effectively, or at least not as much as another state that does have an active military - this also represents a lower hand which can again jeopardize defense in general.
Marxist-Leninist communists believe that an active military that trains its population and performs drills regularly is the most suitable defense against capitalist states, since they have their own military doing the same.
Tell that to the person being “unapologetically socialist” whom I responded to.
Anarchists can’t even organize a voting bloc or a civil sector, and they think a militia will spontaneously activate when needed? Oh please.
For the record, I am somewhere on the left of the spectrum. I believe both social democracy and democratic socialism have their merits. I’m definitely not an ML, for various reasons including I believe they’re too authoritarian and I find them insufferable.
But I also believe that modern social democracies such as are found in western and northern Europe have societies and ways of life that are worth defending, even if that means fighting for them. With the threat looming to the east, I find it imperative for Europe to fund a strong military coalition/alliance.
If you’re trying to draw a comparison between modern Europe (or even modern Germany) and Nazi Germany, don’t. You’re only revealing your ignorance. Or you know it’s inaccurate and you’re doing it anyway in bad faith.
Unless you would have every European nation surrender to russian imperialism, which you seem to be trying to excuse in your previous comment. If that’s the case, then go away.
Putin is a fascist. The Soviet Union died over 30 years ago. Supporting modern russia doesn’t make you edgy or a leftist, it makes you either an idiot or a troll.
OK so you are a evronationalist militarist, nice to know there are so many right-wingers on Lemmy now… ( ,⩌‘︿’⩌,)
Well, you kinda need military power, even if you don’t use it, you can’t expect countries to not attack you and just be diplomatic. Also, don’t accuse people of being [insert here ideology], it’s just childish and not better than attacking them
First of all, no. The whole idea of globalization is that if you have economic entanglement the wars will not be profitable.
Also there are other ways of keeping military strength without having very big military see Switzerland and all guerrilla groups successfully repelling much bigger opponents like the US.
I mostly agree, but the meme created does represent this ideology and you can attack problematic ideologies.
@JustJack23@slrpnk.net wrote:
You’re right! Europe can just defend itself with thougts and prayers. Why didn’t all the bureaucrats from Brussels think about this? Omg, you’re a genius!
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Good for them!
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so what?
Switzerland has mandatory military service. If you include reserves, it has a bigger military than Germany, Poland, or the UK. Not per capita, just straight up more people. If you only include active personnel it’s still comparable per capita to most European countries
How many of those weapons are going to end up in Israel’s hands?
Weird strawman…
It’s not a “strawman.” I understand that most people on here don’t want the weapons going to Israel, which is why I made the point. But the reality is that, once a weapon is built, it’s in the hands of politicians to give to whoever they like. If those politicians are pro-Israel, then even if you want the weapons for the purpose of defense, there’s a significant likelihood they’ll be used to perform genocide.
It absolutely is a strawman, no one mentioned Israel in the discussion before you, it is also not a reason to stop increasing defense spending right now that we need to defend against Russia.
The fact that nobody mentioned Israel is the point. I stg. It isn’t a “strawman” to point out possible unintended consequences of supporting a policy.
“I think I should jump off a tall building.”
“Are you crazy? You’ll die!”
“Wow, what a strawman. Nobody even said anything about dying. I don’t support falling to my death, only the jumping.”
Congratulations, that is one of the stupidest arguments I have read.
Go learn what the word “strawman” means before you call anybody’s arguments stupid lmao.
Only out of necessity, Russia has shown that they are done playing the diplomatic game (though they have been playing it quite badly), the US has fully shat it’s pants and is rolling around in it and China has the carving knife ready for when Russia colapses, if Europe is to survive we need to federalize.
At an absolute minimum, we need to build a unified military under one leadership throughout the EU, military personal from the south must be expected to defend Europe in the north, and vice versa.
I don’t see this as being right-wing, I see it as it being a reality we need to face.
I’ll even share a detail about my general political views, out of all ideologies, I strongly believe that Social Democracy is the best, as it combined a strong government with a regulated free market.
Friend, you need to understand: USA could turn off your F-35.
Simply, you aren’t prepared for USA turning around.
No they can’t.
Sweden doesn’t have F-35’s.
Neither does France.
Europe as a whole also have plenty of Eurofighters.
The US hasn’t really fought any nation with comparable tech and infrastructure since WWII.
I don’t think they’ll have an easy time doing that.
Have you lived in Europe for the past 20 years? European “Social” “Democracy” has led only to the destruction of welfare state, worker rights, increasing of retirement age, and collapse of salaries, and whoever tries to deviate from that by being further left (Syriza, Podemos, LFI) gets couped out of power, whereas far right governments rule without issues in half of the continent
I am living in Sweden, I have done so for the last 38 year after being born.
I have witnessed the all of that.
I stand by what I said, including the part of regulated free markets which you didn’t bring up.
I absolutely disagree with how Socialdemokraterna moved away from the ideology of Social democracy.
However, this does not change my views of the ideology, only the politicians who has failed it.
Social democracy requires strong leaders who can withstand trends pulling in either direction.
“I’ve seen with my own eyes social democracy failing simultaneously everywhere in Europe and ruined millions of lives. However, I still support it”.
No, I have not seen social democracy failing, I have seen politicians failing to uphold social democracy.
That’s the problem: they only need to buy your politicians with many Swedish kronas.
Do you believe a so fragile system is right?
I never said that I believe social democracy is a strong political system, I said that I believe it is the best ideology, meaning that I believe we should keep working to persue it, societies will move to far right, and too far left, regardless, it is a goal we should keep working towards.
I see it as kinda like a compass, regardless of how you turn it, the arrow always point to the magnetic north.
Regardless of what happens to society, we should always have an idea of our goal.
Politicians in every European country’s socialdemocrat party have failed social democracy, seems to me like there’s something in common, maybe the system fucking sucks? And when a new leftist party rises to fight against that, it gets destroyed institutionally, either through removal of government agency by EU (Syriza in Greece), by refusal to place them in government despite majority (LFI in France), or outright fabrications of false funding from Venezuela by the police apparatus (Podemos in Spain)
Soooo you throw your hat in with russia as a way to resolve this?
Supporting leftist antimilitarism isn’t supporting Russia. This is literally what the SPD said in 1914 to support the war budgets for WW1, and this ended in Nazism
Everything else sounds right-winger when one is into authoritarian “left”.
Sorry if someone being unapologetically socialist is too much for you 😢😢
How much is your socialism gonna help anybody when a fascist state overthrows you because you don’t have a military?
Funding a defense force isn’t inherently right-wing militarism; it’s a practical necessity in the world we live in. Its primary function is as a deterrent to potential invaders, it only goes into kinetic operations when its function as a deterrent fails. All the more reason to maintain a strong military.
Peace is more likely when your adversaries know they won’t stand a chance against you.
The only leftist ideology that advocates against an active military is anarchism. Anarchists prefer spontaneous militias that activate as soon as another state acts on them. Obviously there are downsides to this practice as 1) gathering up a militia and organizing them can take time away from defending against outside oppressors, which can jeopardize defense in general, and 2) gathering up a militia of normal folk in a society means they won’t be actively trained in conducting warfare effectively, or at least not as much as another state that does have an active military - this also represents a lower hand which can again jeopardize defense in general.
Marxist-Leninist communists believe that an active military that trains its population and performs drills regularly is the most suitable defense against capitalist states, since they have their own military doing the same.
Tell that to the person being “unapologetically socialist” whom I responded to.
Anarchists can’t even organize a voting bloc or a civil sector, and they think a militia will spontaneously activate when needed? Oh please.
For the record, I am somewhere on the left of the spectrum. I believe both social democracy and democratic socialism have their merits. I’m definitely not an ML, for various reasons including I believe they’re too authoritarian and I find them insufferable.
But I also believe that modern social democracies such as are found in western and northern Europe have societies and ways of life that are worth defending, even if that means fighting for them. With the threat looming to the east, I find it imperative for Europe to fund a strong military coalition/alliance.
Lemmy “leftists”: THE USSR HAVING A STANDING ARMY AND USING IT AGAINST NAZIS IS IMPERIALISM
Also Lemmy “leftists”: WE NEED TO STRENGTHEN THE GLORIOUS EUROPEAN FREEDOM 🦅🦅🦅🦅 GIVING MONEY TO LITERAL NAZI TANK MANUFACTURER RHEINMETALL
What are you on about?
“We need to throw cash bricks at rheinmetall. Yes, I’m a leftist”
If you’re trying to draw a comparison between modern Europe (or even modern Germany) and Nazi Germany, don’t. You’re only revealing your ignorance. Or you know it’s inaccurate and you’re doing it anyway in bad faith.
Unless you would have every European nation surrender to russian imperialism, which you seem to be trying to excuse in your previous comment. If that’s the case, then go away.
Putin is a fascist. The Soviet Union died over 30 years ago. Supporting modern russia doesn’t make you edgy or a leftist, it makes you either an idiot or a troll.
“Not supporting your nation’s military apparatus is synonymous with helping the opposite empire”
-Every state propaganda in WW1
What? Did russia invade itself? You said they are using it against nazis, but they’ve just been bombing innocent civilians.
Also, “USSR” saying the quiet part out loud? Lol
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After the friendships and understanding pact, yeah I know. I know you’re a nazi apologist, but that’s not a good thing.
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bullies use arms, you need to defend yourselves
Ironic comment because almost all anti-EU people in Europe are far-right.
Really? How interesting…