When I was a teenager, I went to church, and almost every ‘Christian’ there was a complete asshole. What makes it worse is that they try to justify it. This honestly made me think that if God and Satan were real, I’d want to know Lucifer’s story. Maybe he’s not actually ‘evil.’
Lucifer’s crime was daring to question his father.
After being cast out he was put in charge of overseeing those that were deemed by that same father to be bad after death.
Seems to be a common link there, and it’s not Lucifer.
And then there’s the book of Job, the entirety of which is a story where God and Satan make a bet over a guy named Job. Satan says Job is only faithful because of the wealth God has granted him. God says Job is genuinely faithful, and tells Satan he can put Job to the test. So Satan has the entire guy’s family killed by bandits, he loses all his material possessions, and winds up plagued and homeless. Job mostly keeps his faith, yet he is persecuted by his friends (just verbally) who believe his sudden punishments are happening because he must have done something wrong and his faith must be false. Still, he holds out, mostly. Then, when Job finally starts to actually crack, God shows up as a fucking whirlwind and goes on a long-ass ramble about how great he (God) is, to which Job humbles himself. God’s response to this is to praise Job. He then chews out Job’s friends who persecuted him and demands they sacrifice 7 bulls and 7 rams and have Job pray for them because God is only gonna listen to Job, nevermind it was all a bet between God and Satan that led to this misunderstanding. Then Job is gifted twice what he had, 14000 sheep, 6000 camels, 1000 yoke of oxen, and 1000 female donkeys. A new family, with seven sons and three daughters, and of course the daughters are just the most beautiful daughters in the whole land. Then Job lived another 140 years. And this definitely makes up for the first family slaughtered, because the Bible says so.
Something something reading the Bible is the greatest proof you can ever need that it’s bullocks.
Children are fungible of course
Like NFTs?
How attached are you to any of those tokens? Would any of equivalent value be more or less the same? If so yes
I liked the take on this story in good omens
If everybody you
meetmake is an asshole…No, I think his crime was that he wanted to take away the whole purpose of life aka living with choice between good and evil. Then the icing was that he wanted God’s glory to be given to him.
My understanding of the purpose of life is that we have no memory of before, we are faced with plausible good and evil choices, and finally we get some hardware that lasts (physical body). There is some irony that the option for evil comes first from lucifer.
If you have come to understand lucifer as good and god as bad aren’t you just… ermm… nvm.
Thinking critically? The dude demanding total obedience and subservience under the threat of eternal torture is not the good guy.
Yeah! That! You know, or just playing nomenclature musical chairs.
I mean… God literally commits genocide multiple times, and that’s just from the stories that they chose to actually include. Satan/Lucifer mostly tempts people to do things they want to do anyway.
Seems pretty cut and dry honestly.
Nothing against rascals or tricksters here.
I feel like many Christians in America are completely disconnected from actual values espoused by Jesus in the Bible. Republican (many of the Christians) policy is diametrically opposed to Matthew 25:31. No one quotes John 13:34 because they rather quote Old Testament BS about what’s an abomination. Why not focus on the love for others, including enemies? Why not focus on helping the poor, the sick, the homeless? Why not help the immigrant? The Bible specifically calls this out as a marker of getting into heaven.
Most of these people don’t even read the book. They like the sense of community at a church, but it feels like it’s formed into a total in:out group mentality. We can’t be a Christian nation as long as there are poor & people struggling.
Then the Utah governor says something like, “We can’t have people camping wherever they want.” my emphasis. Bud, they don’t WANT to be homeless. The lack of empathy is so apparent.
Supply side Jesus
I see those kinds of Christians as revisionist Christians. US evangelical Christianity is like it’s own religion that does not follow the teachings of the Bible or Christ. Their religion is guided by their political dogma, not the other way around.
Those kinds of ‘Christians’ are in the Bible; if you take the rather common view that Revelation is not prophetic but rather describes things which have already happened, then they’ve been around for a long time
Yeah, totally different than Cathlocism which never did that kind of thing. Or any of the other sects of Christianity which never did that kind of thing.
Stupid people are dangerous in groups, like the most scary dangerous thing on the planet in the Holocene.
I never said others were good.
also where the rapture came from, evangelicals.
You’re correct.
Check out “The Separation of Church and Hate” by John Fugelsang. It’s an almost comprehensive teardown of Christofascist ideology using the words of Jesus directly. No extras and no oulled punches. It’s excellent. The author is a comedian and while the content is serious and presented well it’s dressed up as an easier read than I expected.
I grew up Christian in the American South. I left religion in college and faith generally a few years later. I was initially compelled to leave organized Christianity exactly because it demanded exercising cruelties which Jesus clearly opposed.
Fugelsang’s book gathers all of the major contradictions between Jesus and modern right-wing Christianity then dismantles any justification for each one just by quoting Jesus. I’m recommending this book to every reasonable person I know as required reading for the present moment. Not just in the US but the world over.
Fascism respects nothing and if it takes root in a land with the means to export then no shore is necessarily safe harbor.
they get thier fill from evangelical/televangelist pastors.
Have you read the Bible? The only evil shit that Satan does is when he fucks up Job’s life, and that’s in collusion with God. Meanwhile, God is doing evil on almost every page of the Old Testament.
The reason we’re supposed to hate Satan is because he rebelled against God. Again, if you’ve read the Old Testament, you have dozens of good reasons to rebel against God.
This train of thought is what lead to the creation of Satanism as a literary movement in the 19th century and then as a religion in the late 20th century.
Also, the “satan” that is the Torah is actually more of a job title, that of an “accuser”.
Sure, but we’re talking about Satan within Christian mythology, not Judaism.
Jesus was a Jew. He believed a lot of what is in the Torah. It wasn’t until about 600 years later the Bible was “finished”
That’s cool and all, but I don’t see how that changes anything. Christian Satan is different from Jewish Satan.
As a man who works in retail, Lucifer was an employee who thought he deserved a raise, and maybe even take over as manager one day, but the current manager didn’t like that so he sent Lucy to burn at the customer service desk (hell) for eternity.
Well, there’s also Lucifer’s questionable scheme to genocide and enslave all the customers, though that part is debated.
Wait, are you saying that Amazon is actually Satan?
You ever read the three little pigs, from the perspective of the wolf?
The Bible is one side of a story.
Cogito ergo Diablo
I think, therefore I’m the Devil?
Lucifer was just unionizing the angels. God is just the first union buster and ran a smear campaign against the organizer.
Lucifer is also called “the light bringer” as he is tied to the persuit of knowledge. In other words he was woke and was cast away.
I like the name Lucifer. Which is why I called my dog Lucifer. He’s a 8.2 kilo dog who loves pink, and has diamonds on his collar. He also goes by Luci or Lulu. It’s so much fun to see the confusion in some peoples eyes when I tell them he’s a he.
I think my favourite was when he was 7 months old, and we were in a confirmation in Norway and was allowed into the church. Afterwards, everyone wanted to meet him, and some faces when they heard his name was fucking priceless!
I have Luci the Cat who also goes by Lulu… he’s like Luci from Disenchantment. He too is a he
My interpretation of Book of Job is God and Satan are in a toxic relationship where they egg each other on to fuck with people so you shouldn’t trust either of them.
Much like how the president is lying about Chicago and Portland being crime filled dens of sin to keep people from finding out how cool of a city they are.
Portland seems so cool, based on all the live videos they have shared.
The bible is just mythology.
In the beginning man created god. In the end we’ll either correct the mistake, or it will be our extinction.
Satan pretty much exists as the bad cop to Yaweh’s police chief. Both are in cahoots, it is just that one can be thrown under the bus when convenient to do so.
We moved on from the pantheons of Greece, Egypt, Rome, the Norse and Aztecs, etc. Hopefully one day our descendants will be smart enough to realize that Abrahamic mythology is no different than any other, it was just more successful.
“I have no special regard for Satan; but I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side.” - Mark Twain
You don’t have to look at Christians to think God isn’t so good.
In the Bible, Satan kills 10 people, Job’s children, and he did it with God’s blessing while they were having a bet.
God killed entire cities, all the firstborn of a nation even down to the slave’s children, killed everyone on earth except 8 people, killed a guy for picking up sticks, killed a guy for not allowing the ark of the covenant to fall, told the Hebrews to attack nations and kill every man woman and child in the land and was furious when they left a few alive, had a God-off to show he was more powerful and when the other side converted to believe in him he had them killed, killed David’s son and had his 10 wives publicly raped, killed 42 children for making fun of a bald guy… the list goes on, not to mention that God told the Hebrews to have slave’s, women were property and have to be killed if they ruin the one thing they were good for, their virginity.
Christians have weirdest relationship with the Bible. Many don’t really read it. If they did, they’d be Jewish. Jesus said to keep the Jewish laws, but Paul said it’s ok not to. Christians go with Paul instead of Jesus and generally disregard the Old Testament except the parts they think prove Jesus was the Messiah.
The Old Testament is a monotheistically rebranded Epic of Gilgamesh. A lot of the themes were borrowed adapted and rebranded from there and other literature are the time. Even the monotheistic Jewish God Yahweh takes on the title of the supreme God in the Canaanite pantheon (El).
The Old Testament is a time capsule from 5000 years ago. There are some general concepts that can apply to a modern moral life but if you tried to follow everything it says in life today, it would be problematic.
The clear message in the Old Testament is one of God as the absolute and final authority. Its very clear that the message is one to keep people in check. Theres often bending of the rules and some degree of favoritism towards God’s chosen ones. Does not give off an egalitarian vibe but religion is generally not meant for that. Its generally meant to reinforce hierarchical structures (and to get people to accept them even if they are the lowest rung on the ladder out of fear of God).
I agree in general but I can’t think of anything in the OT that is taken from The Epic of Gilgamesh except the Noah’s Ark story, which is a clear rip-off. And the 5000 years ago is too long, I think the oldest books are from the 8th century BCE.
I like Satan because he brings presents to kids on Christmas made by elves in the North Pole, in exchange for some cookies and a kiss from Mom
Well played; the anagram there never occurred to me.
You mean the god that prioritizes fealty and “love” for him alone over virtue, righteousness and good works? One who will give entrance to heaven to a life long sadistic, violent, and self-centered man who repents in his death bed, but will eternally condemn a man who has fed and clothed millions, who saved lives, who reformed bigots and criminals but questioned the existence of God or worshipped another. Compared to Satan, an angel that wished to overthrow this selfish god. Who values knowledge and choice in humanity. Who rewards ambition and creative joy. Who is stuck in hell with the rest of those condemned by the Almighty. I mean, is really no wonder many Christians are how they are.
If you haven’t, read Horns by Joe Hill (skip the movie, it’s not the same). It plays a lot with this dynamic. The protagonist isn’t a hero, isn’t “the good guy”, but has a righteous cause and when God fails him, the Devil steps up.
Horns is a really good movie though. It’s just, as you said, not representative of the book.
You can call yourself anything you want, and no one will stop you. Calling yourself a Christian, while violating every tenet of Christian teachings, does not qualify you as a Christian. I finally coined the term Hypochrists for people like that.
There are plenty of Christians who do follow Christian teachings, to one extent or another, and are generally trying to be decent people. Unfortunately, there are also large numbers of “Christians” who just use the name to justify their selfish behavior, hatred, and cruelty.
All large religions have, or have had, groups like that. Any social institution that can provide credibility is going to be abused as a tool to gain power by someone. It is appalling that the Hypochrists have become large enough, and powerful enough, to have taken over the popular image of what Christianity is.
The only right answer in this thread.
Hypochrists is a good one.
I mean, Lucifer is an angel who questioned the system. We know that statistically, there is a chance he is right and everyone else is wrong. Based on my observations of humanity, the chance of the minority being right is higher.
Honestly to me the whole concept of Lucifer as written in the bible to me, makes me question the whole thing.
like 5 year old me was like “OK wait so how is this guy so stupid that he thinks that he went to battle against god, is he really stupid, everyone knows god is 100% perfectly all powerful”, then you think further and realize literally lucifer was supposedly like the closest angel to god, if anyone has a solid view on gods power, it’s him. Which honestly points to the idea that god… isn’t immortal, isn’t all powerful etc… he just uses that lie as a crux to prevent people from threatening him.
Honestly the story of the tower of babel cements that even more. Now first of all if you’ve heard this story from christians… get rid of the pre-conception because usually preachers etc remove a lot of what is actually in the text, and add things that aren’t there. The story is not about stupid men trying to build a stairway to heaven.
The story as written, in short, man was amazingly unified, world peace was achieved. They were building the tower as an enormous landmark so basically people could see their city from wherever they were, as well as just a testament to what they could accomplish when they worked together.
God looks down at it and says "wow, look at these humans, when they work together, they can accomplish anything they set their mind to. They keep this up and they would be as powerful as gods. To which, god saw that as a credible threat, and so he smashed the tower, spread them all out, and made them speak different languages. Ensuring that they would be too busy fighting eachother rather then becoming a potential threat to him later.
In short, the old testiment is kind of littered with actions that only make sense, if you conclude god, actually has weaknesses and can be beaten.
“can be” vs. “should be”. But yes, the god of the Torah is a jealous god. I mean, he flat-out says, “you shall have no other gods before me”. Not, “no other gods exist”, or “you can’t respect other gods”. Just, none before him. Which says that while he might be omniscient and omnipotent, he’s not the only god who is so.
Like, in the story he literally sends Moses’ follower to do a sorcery battle with the priests of the gods of Egypt. They’re both able to turn their staffs into serpents, which implies they’re both getting divine help. But Yahweh had the bigger serpent (could this be any more on the nose?), so was proven to be the more potent god.
This is interpreted both ways. The “original” Cult of Yahweh view saw the god Yahweh as El, the head god of the Canaanite pantheon. Later, after the Cult of Yahweh became old Judaism, the comandment was reinterpreted as Yahweh being the only god jews should worship, and then later as the only God, since any other divine being worshipped by others would not be God.
I recall as a kid being told most of the angels rebelled with Lucy. That was told in the perspective that God was all powerful to put down the superior numbers. As an adult its more like bro?? Wtf 75% rebelled?
lol yeah one of those things that is attempted to be fanfic to make him seem stronger… but in the end it does the exact opposite. If most the people on your side rebel, you either made or recruited very evil people that thought you looked weak. Or you were doing things that they found horendous enough they’d rather make a futile attempt and accept the cost of failure then take part in whatever you are doing.
The old testament - in many parts - as well as other ancient “religious” texts, is the passed down reflection of humans on the process of “civilizing” themselves during the late neolithic period. It’s all there, beginning with the end of their life as hunter-gatherers and the emergence of diseases of civilization, the hardship and suffering that came along with the “gift” they got that is learning how to cultivate land.
It’s been the complete loss of everything that made up human life for the largest part of our (pre-)history, suddenly gone, because we literally “tasted the fruit”.
