You joke, but I have more respect for panpsychism than assuming the phenomenon of consciousness is only in ourselves and things that think / have nervous systems similar to our own exclusively.
But what’s the point (in a manner of speaking, I know natural selection isn’t guided by intent) of pain? It’s there to provide negative feedback and train you to avoid the painful thing. What purpose would pain serve in a sedentary organism?
I’m aware that evolution doesn’t only preserve positive traits, but where in the history of plant development would using the calories to perceive and process pain have helped an ancestor survive?
ugh, I inadvertently deleted the edits, but things came up on my end and I’m not as motivated anymore
people would literally rather turn into blitzed out new age panspiritualists than agree with a vegan that killing a cow isn’t equivalent to peeling a potato
yea fortunately there are plenty of other delicious things that don’t have a physiology that guarantees they have pretty much the same conscious experience as me
There’s a difference between not resenting and desiring. This is gonna sound crazy but I have actually taken a walk in the Savannah and was arguably close to being eaten by cheetahs.
More relevantly to your point though, I don’t really resent, for example, the people that inflicted trauma upon me in my youth. I don’t know what their life experience was and for all I know I could have done the same in their shoes. I don’t want to see these people and want nothing to do with them but resent them? Not really. Was them harming me but in a different world who knows, you know?
I think the same applies to any kind of infliction of suffering. Like, you don’t have to want or enjoy the suffering or even like the perpetrators one bit to be able to understand / forgive them for what they did.
I don’t expect you to agree. Just wanted to share my perspective. If you’d like to share yours I’d be more than happy to read you.
Yeah, but spending a bunch of calories on something that doesn’t bring you a benefit.
I actively struggled with trying to describe this without ascribing intent to either natural selection or plants, but I’m just making my point badly. I independently conceived of it, though assume it’s not an original thought, so maybe if I get the time I’ll try to look for it.
No, that was the one example that I had considered and that was the rest of my original comment, but the production of defensive chemicals to the smell of damage in neighbors isn’t (afaik) universal among plants, and I’d be interested in whether the plants that we eat have that ability.
clearly, especially since it’s rhetorically convenient for you
an animal with a nervous system entirely analogous to ours and a plant that has crackly bubbles in its cells when it’s low on water or damaged? the same thing, actually. identical. there is no difference between things, and if you think there are then clearly you’re just a hypocritical vegan
don’t you think that’s a funny thing to say when you’re building your entire metaphysical conception of the world around not having to change or question your lifestyle
I’m not sure what you mean by “crackly bubbles”. Many plants (possibly most of them) use electrochemical signaling, which at the very least resembles the hormonal system in animals. The simplest animals are definitely less complex, neural processing wise, than the most complex plants – consider for example sponges (literally no nervous system of any kind) vs. the venus flytrap (capable of rudimentary counting; the trap only closes when the hairs are triggered a certain number of times within a certain timeframe).
There’s also tons of animals whose nervous systems aren’t at all similar to that of humans. Insects and arthropods for example don’t really have a brain, just lumps of ganglia that do some rudimentary processing, and unsurprisingly most people don’t really consider insects to be capable of having any kind of meaningful sentient internal experience.
the article they posted to back up plants “feeling pain” anthropomorphises bubbles popping in the fibres of damaged plants as “crying”, which is apparently proof for plant sentience
You joke, but I have more respect for panpsychism than assuming the phenomenon of consciousness is only in ourselves and things that think / have nervous systems similar to our own exclusively.
But what’s the point (in a manner of speaking, I know natural selection isn’t guided by intent) of pain? It’s there to provide negative feedback and train you to avoid the painful thing. What purpose would pain serve in a sedentary organism?
I’m aware that evolution doesn’t only preserve positive traits, but where in the history of plant development would using the calories to perceive and process pain have helped an ancestor survive?
ugh, I inadvertently deleted the edits, but things came up on my end and I’m not as motivated anymore
purpose is a made up thing that only exists within subjectivity.
people would literally rather turn into blitzed out new age panspiritualists than agree with a vegan that killing a cow isn’t equivalent to peeling a potato
Have you considered how delicious cows are though?
yea fortunately there are plenty of other delicious things that don’t have a physiology that guarantees they have pretty much the same conscious experience as me
Idk I woudn’t resent something if it ate me, especially if I was delicious and they were grateful for my sacrifice.
have you considered going for a long walk in the savannah, you could test that pretty quick
There’s a difference between not resenting and desiring. This is gonna sound crazy but I have actually taken a walk in the Savannah and was arguably close to being eaten by cheetahs.
More relevantly to your point though, I don’t really resent, for example, the people that inflicted trauma upon me in my youth. I don’t know what their life experience was and for all I know I could have done the same in their shoes. I don’t want to see these people and want nothing to do with them but resent them? Not really. Was them harming me but in a different world who knows, you know?
I think the same applies to any kind of infliction of suffering. Like, you don’t have to want or enjoy the suffering or even like the perpetrators one bit to be able to understand / forgive them for what they did.
I don’t expect you to agree. Just wanted to share my perspective. If you’d like to share yours I’d be more than happy to read you.
Yeah, but spending a bunch of calories on something that doesn’t bring you a benefit.
I actively struggled with trying to describe this without ascribing intent to either natural selection or plants, but I’m just making my point badly. I independently conceived of it, though assume it’s not an original thought, so maybe if I get the time I’ll try to look for it.
maybe you’re not considering collective benefit / kin selection.
No, that was the one example that I had considered and that was the rest of my original comment, but the production of defensive chemicals to the smell of damage in neighbors isn’t (afaik) universal among plants, and I’d be interested in whether the plants that we eat have that ability.
idk if universal but afaik it’s very common.
clearly, especially since it’s rhetorically convenient for you
an animal with a nervous system entirely analogous to ours and a plant that has crackly bubbles in its cells when it’s low on water or damaged? the same thing, actually. identical. there is no difference between things, and if you think there are then clearly you’re just a hypocritical vegan
I mean not necessarily hypocritical or even wrong. Just possibly irreflexive or vain.
don’t you think that’s a funny thing to say when you’re building your entire metaphysical conception of the world around not having to change or question your lifestyle
Coming from you, extremely.
I’m not sure what you mean by “crackly bubbles”. Many plants (possibly most of them) use electrochemical signaling, which at the very least resembles the hormonal system in animals. The simplest animals are definitely less complex, neural processing wise, than the most complex plants – consider for example sponges (literally no nervous system of any kind) vs. the venus flytrap (capable of rudimentary counting; the trap only closes when the hairs are triggered a certain number of times within a certain timeframe).
There’s also tons of animals whose nervous systems aren’t at all similar to that of humans. Insects and arthropods for example don’t really have a brain, just lumps of ganglia that do some rudimentary processing, and unsurprisingly most people don’t really consider insects to be capable of having any kind of meaningful sentient internal experience.
the article they posted to back up plants “feeling pain” anthropomorphises bubbles popping in the fibres of damaged plants as “crying”, which is apparently proof for plant sentience
Not proof, just interesting to think about.
How do you know that the minerals don’t enjoy being smelted?
I don’t.