Couldn’t agree more. Parenting failures are the root of so much (though being charitable, there are many parents in working conditions that basically destroy their ability to parent effectively). Regardless of parents, any kid is shaped (raised) in big ways by the communities they participate in. I’ve got no problem telling a little knucklehead - even one I’ve never met - to quit mistreating folks in various ways when I see it. And I wish more people would too.

But I also recognize that has the potential to really blow up (even violently) depending on the kid’s parents and the scenario. But still, many of us just recoil from even the idea of a disagreement, and that’s the mechanism that allows this stuff to fester in our youth. Take responsibility for your society, be mean to a kid who needs it today!

Ah, but yet…

Woof, that’s hilarious and annoying. Food service from what I understand has super thin margins - things like fountain drink sodas (and alcohol sales at other spots) do a lot of the work on keeping the place economically viable. Not excusing that guy’s pettiness but if you see weird behavior around a specific ingredient or item, it’s probably something along those lines.

I think it’s probably being in the age range that kinda straddled the time between now - when it’s all an unshakeable piece of daily life - and the time before it existed / was commonplace. Having grown up before all of these world changing tech advances, and then being there for the ride, is just a singular experience and perspective neither our parents or our kids can possibly have.

I’m really grateful for having gotten to take the ride, but it does strike me as sad in a way.

I’m advocating for a mixed approach that serves more kids, and arguing that you had such a mixed approach yourself but don’t seem to acknowledge it.

Memorization (done properly, that is - I invoked “spaced repetition”, an evidence-based learning technique from the field of education, you’re the one talking about corporal punishment from nuns) is effective in precisely this and related domains having tons of minutiae.

It’s not that learning the process is inefficient, that’s not what I meant - learning only the process and not focusing on rote memorization as well leaves you with only the process to rely on when learning further math (your experience sounds like you got both, regarding multiplication).

Relying on only rules/processes to complete intermediate steps that are not the subject under instruction is what is inefficient. Using rules to reach simple multiplication facts when trying to learn algebra or even just long division is brutal for kids with any attention difficulty whatsoever. By the time they’ve solved the multiplication answer they wanted, they’ve lost the thread on the new concept. Rote memorization reduces the effort needed to use multiplication when learning everything else. It doesn’t feel that you’re reading very carefully here, but it could be me who failed to make myself plain.

I myself am a process guy and high on pattern-seeking. I write software for a living and live in abstractions layered on abstractions - even the physics is invisible lol, nothing (but fans and I guess HDD heads where still used) ever moves. It all feels like pretend!

My point is that understanding processes and relationships in the space of numbers can arise FROM being forced to learn many small truths over and over. A student can identify patterns (the shortcuts) from just learning the facts. Similarly you can get to the facts if you understand the process - like most math there’s a lovely symmetry there that you seem unwilling to agree with me about. They both inform and train the brain differently and you seem to have benefitted from that yourself.

We need both, and rote memorization is especially useful in a small number of domains, irreplaceable. Anyone who has gone through an Anatomy & Physiology class successfully will agree too, and I can give more examples. There’s no “process” or rules involved.

Anyway, I think we’re mostly talking past each other and probably mostly agree.

You’re a real one!

I don’t mean to be picking fights with you but this is a topic I care about - I really think it’s a mistake to say “I was exposed to this material much earlier and therefore picked it up faster and more robustly” and then claim that’s an argument against rote memorization. Especially considering how few kids are keeping up in math. Your experience was very fortunate and largely uncommon.

The rules and shortcuts you’re describing are absolutely part of the work I’m doing with my daughter, but they go hand-in-hand with the “spaced repetition” (ish) approach we’re focusing on, of just iterating a lot. One without the other is much weaker - mnemonics are extremely valuable aids, but none of it sticks without repetition. I’d say that all tasks involving remembering lots of minutiae (contrasted with remembering processes) greatly benefit from mnemonics, but fully require rote memorization practice in order to have the dexterity needed for quick recall that doesn’t get in the way. So things like chemistry, anatomy, case law.

It’s true that multiplication can be kept strictly a “learn the process” task, but your other points kind of just say that the repetition that comes in a person’s life later on finishes that work / replaces the dedicated memorization phase. And frankly the process you went through sounds like it involved a standard amount of repetition, you just had a head start so it didn’t feel as new or as uncomfortable.

I say only learning the processes is extremely inefficient and will make learning any more advanced math much, much harder. Lacking that strong basis of recall, kids have to think to do the multiplication that is merely an intermediate step and not at all part of the material being learned, moving forward. This reduces (greatly) their ability to engage with the actual subject matter because they are already working to complete the intermediate steps. I’ve seen it happen firsthand - I think you mean well, but I think your POV on multiplication is way wrong and actually harmful here.

E: I’m conflating mnemonics with arithmetic shortcuts here, I hope you’ll forgive that. They’re related - remembering one arithmetic shortcut gives you access to many answers, and usually mnemonics serve a similar “get lots of stuff for one significant remembered thing” kind of role.

Completely agree with you. But hilariously, 9 stacks of 6 bricks only accounts for 54 of them…please don’t change it lmao

I take your point but multiplication is a really bad example. It’s one of the few things in life where really doing the rote memorization well, once, pays off lifelong. It can be argued “doesn’t pay off lifelong for everyone!”, and I mean, strictly speaking that’s true.

But not learning multiplication properly is basically a death sentence for keeping up with later math classes, which is exactly what convinces a kid they are “bad at math” and shouldn’t pursue entire areas of the working world, generally very rewarding areas, too.

My daughter is not naturally strong at math and I am naturally not authoritarian, but this is one case where being forced to do the work properly one good time (as in learn it truly well, once) is too valuable to let slip.

Just got mine set up this weekend, really works a treat! Utterly painless. Even put the client on the Roku I apparently don’t own, hope the pricks somehow notice lol

You should watch the video! I don’t have a link, sorry. They turn up on a “kiss cam”, instantly freak out and hide, and the dude with the mic (Coldplay I guess?) clowns em (briefly) for it. It is a goddamn gem and the best part is their own freak out is the only reason it blew up and got found out at all. Just lovely stuff.

Or maybe this kind of comic comes from people who’ve directly witnessed a lot of wildly ignorant bigoted takes from their fellow countrymen. I agree with this comic in every way, and I’d be the first to argue that the US has a diverse, fascinating collection of culture, highly regional and frankly beautiful in its all-too-human strengths and weaknesses.

But we have a ton of clowns like the character here, who don’t understand more than a sliver of their own history or culture.

Damn, withstandinator, I’m stealing that. It’s maybe my most useful (and at times, pretty dumb) trait lol

Yeesh! I stumbled onto that image just scrolling, had no prior awareness of the situation. I found even just that without context off-putting and gross, wondered what the poster meant. This person just oozes toxicity, so sorry you’ve gotta deal with that.

I’m part of this crowd too, sorry 😅

I did, though, just recently do some hard-selling to some folks I care about, toward this instance (and Lemmy in general in some cases), as just a better place to hang out, a previously ~impossible-to-find “home” on the interwebz. My primary reason for doing that was your exemplary approach toward governance, and the way this place works as a result (I know that’s not solely down to you, lol, relax!).

Your concern about this sounds like exactly the kind of refusal of authority (including your own) that makes this place lovely.

Like it or not, true leaders arise naturally, and are followed by those who like what they see. Entirely distinct from any hierarchical structure imposing “leadership” (authority).

I’m certain that you understand that far better than me.

db0 it is, then, for shorthand - but if you really hate that, I’ll change my own budding habits 🤷‍♂️

I can’t confess to being quite as wholesome as you (well, at least your food decision-making lol) but you’re on top of it, ya love to see it. I have, though, been making much more thoughtful choices about how much factory farmed meat I consume. Getting it down pretty low these days, but it helps that I have an Indian spot nearby with vegetarian food at least as satisfying as any meat-based dish. Malai kofta, unnnnfff.

Side note - since parts of this thread run the risk of shaming poor folks for “bad” financial decisions - I’m not going there (and I don’t think you were either, you sound compassionate to me). It’s a problem to a degree of course, but also being super (often hopelessly?) poor really screws up the brain. Speaking from experience. Scarcity, even self-imposed, can sometimes take me to some dark places, most notably back to personality traits that I developed in those days that I have done tremendous work to repair. Our systems are deranged and nonsensical, not our poor.

Yet another “wtf, y’all?”, good point. I can’t personally say that grosses me out, but I tend to be in the minority on that sort of topic myself, so I totally see what you’re saying. Aint no health inspector checking these vehicles (true of traditional delivery too I suppose).

And I mean…sometimes the drivers straight up eat some food, which is awful from the standpoint of your POV, but also just… truly hilarious to me.

That is a good point (re: COVID) that I had lost along the way, thanks. Those services did do good during that time, you’re right. I’m not so sure about the GPS thing, but hey, I never thought we’d see half the ugly shit we’re seeing these days, so why not?

Of all the modern capitalistic irritations (to put it mildly), this one I really detest. And not least because of how ridiculously popular it is, wtf people? I watch folks I know, who can barely afford the food itself in the first place, then inflate the price by like 40%, just to eat the already (very!) mediocre food…cold. Solely so that they don’t have to leave the house. Just completely unhinged from my POV, and honestly produces almost a sense of alienation in me, I find it so bizarre.

Disclaimer though - I will acknowledge both that I happily enjoy various different foolish things myself, so the point about glass houses is worth my keeping in mind, and also there are some great reasons to use it (limited mobility for one, as another user pointed out).

But sheesh folks. Restaurants largely hate it from my understanding, the drivers doing it hate it (cuz the job - oh excuse me, the preferred exploitation-hiding euphemism is “gig” - is utter shit, a literal minor improvement over straight up homelessness), the environment hates it, the wear-and-tear on a likely broke person’s vehicle and the wear-and-tear on already struggling infrastructure…I mean what the fuckity fuck, seriously. How is this so popular, we’re all insane and just conveniencing our way to oblivion. SMgoddamnH.

Aside from the aforementioned reasonable uses (largely edge cases, let’s be honest), there is precisely one group of people who truly benefit in any serious way from this amazingly destructive nonsense - and wouldn’t you know it, it’s the exact same group fucking us in every other way! Weird!

Sorry. This one really gets me.

Hey thanks! I probably wouldn’t have gone and checked again without your comment, was having all kinds of trouble. Looks good now.

Edit: Hmm, spoke too soon, still seeing that sometimes. But at least now subsequent attempts work, I’m not getting credentials rejection in addition to that (although…I think that part may have been my fault, looking back…embarrassing lol).