thoughts on these critiques:

  1. I mean, I don’t think it’s a camp so much so as it is reality. Dengism has pushed forth a disastrous capitalist restoration that every single CPC government has done ever since, workers have been continually disenfranchised and chinese capitalists pop up everywhere and establish businesses that exploit the proletariat
  2. how can a country be a dotp without its basis of government being soviets they give bourgeois the right to vote and participate in government.
  3. Beijing has legally and specifically preserved capitalist governance where it can during dengism (Basic Laws in Macau, Hong Kong), but even Hong Kong is being outcapitalisted by the mainland, with Shanghai and even Shenzhen surpassing Hong Kong in terms of commerce and trade, points of great pride for Beijing despite this very clearly not being socialist
  4. the 1918 russian constitution officially denied political power to the nobility and bourgeoisie anyway, universal right to vote is inherently bourgeois. ALL POWER TO THE SOVIETS this is very basic stuff
  • freagle@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
    14·
    1 month ago

    You, like the OP, are confused.

    Under socialism, workers do not own the means of production the way they would own them in bourgeois society. This is because private ownership of the means of production is abolished under socialism. The means of production become part of the Commons, like a national park. No one owns national parks. They are part of the Commons.

    Governments exist to manage the conflict between opposing interests to benefit the ruling class. Under socialism, the ruling class is the workers. Sometimes individual workers or small groups of workers will have an interest that competes with the interests of the working class as a whole. This is normal when the interests of the working class are distributed among a massive population, living in a complex world, where not everyone can see every single aspect of every single issue.

    Therefore it is entirely possible for some workers to have an adversarial relationship with the state at some times while simultaneously the working class does NOT have an adversarial relationship with the state. This is because classes and people are different things that have different relationships to different phenomena.

    You already know this, but haven’t made this connection yet. The working class can control the means of production while individual workers do not. The working class can control the means of production while no workers in a particular factory have the ability to determine what it produces. The working class can control the means of production while some workers are anti-war and other workers are demanding the maintenance nuclear weapon systems for national security.

    Whether the working class controls the means of production is not tested by determining if any particular group of workers can strike without consequences, it is tested by the relationships between the working class and other classes, by the relationship of the classes to the state, by the incentive systems and systems of control that exist in society and how those systems relate to the classes.

      • freagle@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
        5·
        1 month ago

        Are you asking specifically about China where the working class controls the state and the state works in the interest of the working class? Because in that AES state, they have a class collaborationist strategy that maintains profit as an incentive subservient to the incentive of building a sustainable working class society.

        The purpose of that collaboration is to develop the society while it is besieged by imperialism hell bent on destroying it. In what appears to be a contradiction, the collaboration of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie is required for the eventual resolution of the contradiction of class society. This is an example of the dialectics of 1-into-2. The classes are not separate independent entities that engage in conflict and overcome one another. The classes are of the same root - they are all just humans living in society. The resolution of the contradiction of class society is not the wholesale destruction of one class by another but rather the withering away of the distinction between the classes into their undifferentiated social humanity.