Is this really the comment you want to be making at a time like this? ICE has, on camera, in the streets, executed two people. They’ve kidnapped at least two elementary school children, that we know of, and probably many more. They’ve killed several people in custody, but since there aren’t multiple video angles of those deaths, those deaths aren’t getting the same play on the internet.
And this is the context in which you want to blame ICE’s victim for getting shot? Really? What’s wrong with you?
I disagree with how everything is being handled. Regardless putting yourself within arms length of an antagonized, politicized and armed law enforcement agency with a concealed firearm is stupid. It just is. Nothing changes this calculus.
“Licking Jackboot”
I’m not part of the Lemmy hivemind. Dismiss logic with whatever slogan you feel like using. You haven’t refuted anything.
If they pull a gun off of you and you continue to be non-compliant it is not unreasonable for them to assume you could have another weapon
Why is that not unreasonable? I mean, by that logic why bother with step one? Why not just assume anyone who is resisting has a weapon and murder them?
Officers always assume that a suspect could be carrying a deadly weapon especially if they are non-compliant. This is why concealed carry classes focus on that interaction with such detail. As a carrier of a concealed weapon you have to use judgment first of all to avoid conflict and subsequently to reassure the officer that you are not a threat. This is how you facilitate a peaceful disarming and ensure you are not killed.
If they were shoving her it’s because they saw her as a threat. I only saw maybe 10 seconds of that interaction so maybe it was justified or maybe it was complete overreach on their part. Regardless it’s clear they wanted her out of the way and/or on the ground. I’m not saying it’s right. I’m saying they have the guns and the power of the state behind them. Don’t get involved. Especially if you are carrying a deadly weapon.
I know this person can’t respond but I want to make an important point for the people reading this.
You absolutely are saying it’s right. You say that ICE was harassing a woman because they felt it was necessary, with no interrogation of what that actually means. As if ICE can only react rationally to what they perceive as threats, as if ICE can soberly and rationally perceive threats. Then you frame the shooting as an almost mechanical consequence, like that of a ball rolling down hill due to physical forces, of state power interacting with perceived hostility. Again this is without critical thought of what that truly means and assumes the state is just a rational actor abiding by some rational law, of which the victims failed to account. You’re essentially saying it’s like standing in front a freight train running at full speed. The nascent law of the universe says that the human sized object will be obliterated if they don’t respect the kinetic energy of the multi-ton behemoth. Therefore it’s kinda their fault for not stepping out of the way. Painting these human actions as some natural system of mechanics is endorsing it as the rule of nature. You are saying it’s right because to go against it is to fight against the inevitability of nature.
None of this was inevitable. It’s not the result of natural laws. It’s not a Rube Goldberg machine that is impossible to stop once it’s in motion. It is an intentional, manufactured outcome. It’s an intentional decision by the leaders of the state to not intervene in protecting its citizens. It’s an intentional decision by the leaders of the federal state to point untrained, highly ideological murderers at the citizenry to make a political statement. It is an intentional, multi-generational effort to make sure citizens are as defenseless as possible with the least amount of oversight or input into the state. These things culminate in yesterday’s events. It is nothing to do with the individual decisions of Alex or the person he was defending. To frame it like their individual decisions is just as much a cause as the historical confluence of class struggle is morally repugnant and lacks any intellectual merit.
This comment is extremely well said and gets at something very deep and important. Thank you for saying it so well and I hope more eyes read it. In every case I’ve seen of fascist sympathizers (aka fascists who aren’t wearing boots yet) justifying the crimes of ICE, or regular cops, or whatever bourgeois institution murdering workers, they frame it in a way that the perpetrators of these crimes are a simple force of nature, a physical law, exactly like you said, rather than the outcomes of those cop’s choices, just as arbitrary if not more so as the choices made by their victims. They’ll say “that person made the CHOICE to challenge the cops/ICE/institutional power, and that choice resulted in an expected outcome, their death,” blaming the victim. And they’ll call it “logic” like this fucking bootlicking loser who is now banned. But it’s never framed the other way around. They’ll never frame it as the result of the choices made by ICE/cops, where the response to their violence and oppression is the natural force, even though it’s just as valid of a framework. There are fascists with institutional authority who are making arbitrary decisions about who they want to murder, whether it was a planned out operation, or a choice made in the moment when they executed some “uppity” civilian. Of course there are going to be people who challenge them, it is a natural consequence (like a physical law) resulting from the pressure created by the choice fascists have made to oppress people. There will be those who resist, inevitably, and there will be those who are no threat but get murdered anyway - by definition a natural consequence of fascists with power. The bootlicking fascist-sympathizing logic-enjoyers want to make everything that happens some deterministic series of events (your reference to a Rube Golberg Machine being the chef’s kiss perfect analogy) but they’ll sob and cry foul the second one of those institutional fascists gets the inevitable natural consequence of what’s coming to them. Once that third law of motion kicks in they’re going to forget all about “natural consequences.”
And what will you do when ICE are patrolling the polling stations to stop “illegals” from voting? Better not argue with them for your right to vote, that’s how you end up in a body bag.
If a rabid pit bull was out in the streets attacking the elderly and children, ripping their faces off, you’d be telling everyone to just stay back and make soothing sounds, or offer it a treat, rather than trying to stop it before it does more damage. Self-reflect a little bit and do better next time.
I’m not American but I’ve held the view for several years now that the democrats and republicans need to be permanently removed from power. The two big parties must be banned. We may have different reasons for it but what matters is that the political system doesn’t do any good.
Removed by mod
Is this really the comment you want to be making at a time like this? ICE has, on camera, in the streets, executed two people. They’ve kidnapped at least two elementary school children, that we know of, and probably many more. They’ve killed several people in custody, but since there aren’t multiple video angles of those deaths, those deaths aren’t getting the same play on the internet.
And this is the context in which you want to blame ICE’s victim for getting shot? Really? What’s wrong with you?
I see no reason to suspend the logic I would use in any other context.
I can’t parse this in any other way than you just say whatever first comes to mind with no critical filter
Reddit is for licking jackboot. This is lemmy.
I disagree with how everything is being handled. Regardless putting yourself within arms length of an antagonized, politicized and armed law enforcement agency with a concealed firearm is stupid. It just is. Nothing changes this calculus.
I’m not part of the Lemmy hivemind. Dismiss logic with whatever slogan you feel like using. You haven’t refuted anything.
Not brutal enough for you. No question mark because it’s not a question.
Emotionality.
Fuck off
Why is that not unreasonable? I mean, by that logic why bother with step one? Why not just assume anyone who is resisting has a weapon and murder them?
Officers always assume that a suspect could be carrying a deadly weapon especially if they are non-compliant. This is why concealed carry classes focus on that interaction with such detail. As a carrier of a concealed weapon you have to use judgment first of all to avoid conflict and subsequently to reassure the officer that you are not a threat. This is how you facilitate a peaceful disarming and ensure you are not killed.
worthless coward scum, the victim clearly got involved because the goons were harassing a lady and shoved her hard/
If they were shoving her it’s because they saw her as a threat. I only saw maybe 10 seconds of that interaction so maybe it was justified or maybe it was complete overreach on their part. Regardless it’s clear they wanted her out of the way and/or on the ground. I’m not saying it’s right. I’m saying they have the guns and the power of the state behind them. Don’t get involved. Especially if you are carrying a deadly weapon.
I know this person can’t respond but I want to make an important point for the people reading this.
You absolutely are saying it’s right. You say that ICE was harassing a woman because they felt it was necessary, with no interrogation of what that actually means. As if ICE can only react rationally to what they perceive as threats, as if ICE can soberly and rationally perceive threats. Then you frame the shooting as an almost mechanical consequence, like that of a ball rolling down hill due to physical forces, of state power interacting with perceived hostility. Again this is without critical thought of what that truly means and assumes the state is just a rational actor abiding by some rational law, of which the victims failed to account. You’re essentially saying it’s like standing in front a freight train running at full speed. The nascent law of the universe says that the human sized object will be obliterated if they don’t respect the kinetic energy of the multi-ton behemoth. Therefore it’s kinda their fault for not stepping out of the way. Painting these human actions as some natural system of mechanics is endorsing it as the rule of nature. You are saying it’s right because to go against it is to fight against the inevitability of nature.
None of this was inevitable. It’s not the result of natural laws. It’s not a Rube Goldberg machine that is impossible to stop once it’s in motion. It is an intentional, manufactured outcome. It’s an intentional decision by the leaders of the state to not intervene in protecting its citizens. It’s an intentional decision by the leaders of the federal state to point untrained, highly ideological murderers at the citizenry to make a political statement. It is an intentional, multi-generational effort to make sure citizens are as defenseless as possible with the least amount of oversight or input into the state. These things culminate in yesterday’s events. It is nothing to do with the individual decisions of Alex or the person he was defending. To frame it like their individual decisions is just as much a cause as the historical confluence of class struggle is morally repugnant and lacks any intellectual merit.
This comment is extremely well said and gets at something very deep and important. Thank you for saying it so well and I hope more eyes read it. In every case I’ve seen of fascist sympathizers (aka fascists who aren’t wearing boots yet) justifying the crimes of ICE, or regular cops, or whatever bourgeois institution murdering workers, they frame it in a way that the perpetrators of these crimes are a simple force of nature, a physical law, exactly like you said, rather than the outcomes of those cop’s choices, just as arbitrary if not more so as the choices made by their victims. They’ll say “that person made the CHOICE to challenge the cops/ICE/institutional power, and that choice resulted in an expected outcome, their death,” blaming the victim. And they’ll call it “logic” like this fucking bootlicking loser who is now banned. But it’s never framed the other way around. They’ll never frame it as the result of the choices made by ICE/cops, where the response to their violence and oppression is the natural force, even though it’s just as valid of a framework. There are fascists with institutional authority who are making arbitrary decisions about who they want to murder, whether it was a planned out operation, or a choice made in the moment when they executed some “uppity” civilian. Of course there are going to be people who challenge them, it is a natural consequence (like a physical law) resulting from the pressure created by the choice fascists have made to oppress people. There will be those who resist, inevitably, and there will be those who are no threat but get murdered anyway - by definition a natural consequence of fascists with power. The bootlicking fascist-sympathizing logic-enjoyers want to make everything that happens some deterministic series of events (your reference to a Rube Golberg Machine being the chef’s kiss perfect analogy) but they’ll sob and cry foul the second one of those institutional fascists gets the inevitable natural consequence of what’s coming to them. Once that third law of motion kicks in they’re going to forget all about “natural consequences.”
“If they did it there must be a good reason”
Who will wash the brains of these people
You subservient, cowardly little slime. Lower than the lowest animal.
deleted by creator
And what will you do when ICE are patrolling the polling stations to stop “illegals” from voting? Better not argue with them for your right to vote, that’s how you end up in a body bag.
Chew glass.
You don’t understand what ICE is doing, you stupid fucking dipshit
If a rabid pit bull was out in the streets attacking the elderly and children, ripping their faces off, you’d be telling everyone to just stay back and make soothing sounds, or offer it a treat, rather than trying to stop it before it does more damage. Self-reflect a little bit and do better next time.
Stupid motherfucker alert!!!
Drink bleach
These guys always bring out the possibility of another weapon like it justifies cowardice. Deal with what is there’s not what might be there.
It’s like dealing with children you lack so much awareness
I don’t care about the down votes. People just need to relax and avoid walking right into an ICE raid.
These need to overthrow your government is what they need to do. Whatever it takes, no holding back.
I’m not American but I’ve held the view for several years now that the democrats and republicans need to be permanently removed from power. The two big parties must be banned. We may have different reasons for it but what matters is that the political system doesn’t do any good.